What if trust could be more powerful than a bank? Amor Flowerday joins Lawrence to explore her journey from an unexpected start in a banana laboratory to more than a decade working with financial advisors. Along the way, they discuss South Africa’s unique stokvel culture and how this tradition is now inspiring a new generation to think differently about money.
Summary
Amor Flowerday joins Lawrence to explore her journey from an unexpected start in a banana laboratory to more than a decade working with financial advisors. Along the way, they discuss South Africa’s unique stokvel culture and how this tradition is now inspiring a new generation to think differently about money.
Key Topics
The origin and evolution of stokvel in South Africa
Cultural significance of trust and Ubuntu in community finance
How millennials are adapting traditional savings concepts
The role of governance and trust in community savings groups
Comparison of South African stokvel with global community finance models
The impact of technology on traditional community savings systems
The importance of patience and community in wealth building
Challenges and opportunities for adapting stokvel internationally
Sound Bites
"It's all about trust and supporting community."
"Trust has to be the foundation of these systems."
"Patience and long-term thinking are key to wealth."
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Amor Flowerday and the episode's theme
02:28 Amor's background: From banana lab to financial communication
05:00 The rise of macadamia nuts as a key commodity in South Africa
07:09 Getting into financial advising and Amor's industry insights
09:00 Changes in financial communication and technology since 2012
12:04 Cultural differences in technology adoption in South Africa
13:41 The rural communities' access to technology and trust issues
22:13 Introduction to stokvel and its historical roots
24:32 How stokvel operates: Trust, community, and rotation
27:04 Modern adaptations of stokvel and its growth in South Africa
29:08 The community and trust as core principles of stokvel
34:17 Teaching children about community savings and financial literacy
36:39 The potential for global adaptation of community savings models
38:12 The importance of community, patience, and trust in wealth building
41:46 Closing thoughts: Lessons from South Africa's community finance
Lawrence (00:05)
Welcome to the Priority Lane podcast. I'm your host, Lawrence Dawnsey, today. This is the podcast where we work out how to work smarter, not harder. It's been a while since since I was last on in the studio, so apologies for the the delay, but there's been other projects that needed my attention. so today I am very happy to welcome my next guest, Amor Flower Day. Now
Amor has been involved for the last fifteen or so years with training financial advisors how to use systems and tools that will that will make them engage more and be more productive. and she's currently working with a a number of investors on how to navigate their their portal, which is proving somewhat difficult for them. So she's she's you know an expert in communication and dealing with
some interesting characters from the investment investment industry. and I'm glad that she's here. Amor welcome. How are you?
Amor Flowerday (01:01)
Hi Lawrence, thank you so much for having me. I'm very well, thank you. Very excited
Lawrence (01:04)
Right. Good.
Amor Flowerday (01:06)
about today's topic and the fact that it's truly South African.
Lawrence (01:11)
This is this is what we're gonna touch on, the you know, the culture. And for the listeners, as you may well have heard, Amor also has somewhat of an asset in her beguiling accent from the Southern Hemisphere. so I'm delighted to to talk to her about the culture in South Africa and in in particular a certain savings and investment program which many of us won't know about. So but we'll get onto that in a bit. So
Amor, just tell me a little bit about your your your first job, your first role, or how you got into working with I suppose characters in the financial industry.
Amor Flowerday (01:49)
So it it was a very
it was kind of a strange connection. I went to a a function one day and the CEO of a company met me very randomly and we we spoke about different topics and he was telling me how hard it is to train certain staff and I said, No, not at all. You just have to, you know, go step by step. And he offered me a job on the spot.
Which was amazing, which I had no experience in whatsoever. before that I had worked in a in a banana lab where they used tissue culture to actually make banana plants. So no experience whatsoever.
And he was like, This is a good idea. Join our team. Thrown into the deep end, didn't have a clue what I was doing for the first five years. And
They I just I just loved it. I loved learning
new skills, new communication platforms, all that kind of stuff.
Lawrence (02:51)
Wow. So you went from from banana laboratory to training?
Amor Flowerday (02:58)
Exactly. And and
we l I mean when I'm talking about banana lab literally using tissue
culture from a a main banana block and a mother block and cutting it into little slices and forming new plants to sell all across the world.
Lawrence (03:15)
Wow. Good lord. So does that mean you have a I don't know, a degree in biochemistry or something like that? Do you still
Amor Flowerday (03:22)
No, just a lot of patience.
Lawrence (03:25)
like bananas or do you like bananas at all?
Amor Flowerday (03:28)
I do, so it it's in our area it's not as popular as where I grew up. I grew up in Limpopo, which is on the border of Zimbabwe. And now I'm
living in KZN, which is KwaZulu Natsal, and it's more on the coastline. So it is still banana country, but it's not a a fruit country like area like Limpopo
Lawrence (03:43)
Okay. Right. Right.
Amor Flowerday (03:49)
used to be.
Lawrence (03:50)
Okay. So what's the I suppose what's the leading commodity there then?
Amor Flowerday (03:57)
Currently Macadamia Nuts.
Lawrence (03:59)
Okay. All right. Is that
Amor Flowerday (04:01)
African gold.
Lawrence (04:02)
Is it?
Amor Flowerday (04:04)
Completely.
Lawrence (04:05)
And whereabouts does I don't know if you know the answer and whereabouts does does your region rank in terms of macademia nut production? Do you know?
Amor Flowerday (04:15)
quite high as far as I understand. I think internationally macadamia nuts they're not even reaching ten percent of the demand yet. So which is crazy if you think about it in those terms. But because in South Africa we've got so many big farms, it it's something that's gro it's exploding on a daily basis. It it's really growing very fast.
Lawrence (04:37)
Wow. Wow. Well that's I mean, I find that fascinating. This is relatable for me. This is human element stuff, working in a a banana lab with the macadamia nuts I mean, you know, this is this is great stuff.
Amor Flowerday (04:50)
No.
Lawrence (04:51)
it's a far cry from your experience with working with financial advisors though. So tell me a little bit, how did you get into that? and and how did you find financial advisors as a as a breed?
Amor Flowerday (05:04)
So there there's two very different sides of the coin I found. I I very seldom meet people in between in the financial industry. You you've got the the younger, very d driven, I wanna say, financial advisor that
He wants to retire early. This is about making money. And he needs to get himself
Lawrence (05:26)
Yeah.
Amor Flowerday (05:28)
on a path to kind of achieve something within a certain time frame. Usually I find
Lawrence (05:33)
Us the
Amor Flowerday (05:33)
those people come from backgrounds where they didn't have anything. So this is this
Lawrence (05:36)
Yeah.
Amor Flowerday (05:38)
is their security in life. Then I also get a different side of the coin.
where they truly believe they can change someone's life and they are hundred percent out to do that. they are more
Lawrence (05:50)
Okay.
Amor Flowerday (05:54)
rare, you find them more scarcely, should I say, but they do truly believe that they are there to help people change their lives and change their their family life, you know, everything they leave behind for their children.
Lawrence (06:07)
Of course, of course. Well, obviously the first one is I understand the drive if you come from you know potential situation of not having a great deal. So of course the drive there to succeed is is very very strong. the second one, of course, I'm I'm well aware of that also, most of the
financial advisor businesses and individuals I speak to, they are all about making that difference and you know generating wealth not just for one individual, but ideally for the family going forward. Because also for them, that means that their book continues and you know their business can continue. So so I I understand that. So you so when did you start working with financial advisors once you were out of the communication side of things?
Amor Flowerday (06:54)
From twenty twelve.
Lawrence (06:56)
Okay. And whereabouts was that?
Amor Flowerday (06:59)
So I
I was based in South Africa but I was working for a international company based in Dubai and it was Holborn Assets and they they were kind enough to give someone with zero experience free access to their most valuable part of their business and that was communicating with the financial advisors. And
Lawrence (07:22)
Okay.
Amor Flowerday (07:23)
it was also in the beginning helping them
With their bookings of clients helping figure out, you know, what kind of products go where. so I
Lawrence (07:29)
And why it's going to be on.
Amor Flowerday (07:33)
have no financial experience. Doesn't matter how many years I've been in the industry, I have got no confidence in giving anyone advice because I think it changes daily. And I I don't
Lawrence (07:39)
Yeah.
Amor Flowerday (07:46)
think anything is ever secure. But
But it's been an amazing industry to see the changes that's happened
Lawrence (07:53)
Just
Amor Flowerday (07:55)
in the past
Two decades, it's just been extreme. The way people communicate, the kind of people that invest. when I just started, it was only the very wealthy that invested. That was the person that would phone in, that was who the financial advisors communicated with. And there's a lot of personal questions they ask you: how much do you earn? You know, I mean, not everyone wants to disclose that, but today it is everyone
Lawrence (07:59)
And I think that's not good idea. Yeah, of course.
Amor Flowerday (08:25)
has access to that.
Yeah.
Lawrence (08:27)
Yeah, I I I can see that. I mean, the those sort of questions, but as you've mentioned, you know, years ago, of course the financial advisors, let's not let's not, let's just say how it is. Of course they wanted the most most wealthy people phoning in because it meant more commission and and you know earnings for them as well. So and I think that still remains to be fair. you know, high net worth and ultra high net worth individuals are
without a doubt financial advisors they would they would want them on board obviously before anyone else and that's that's just human nature
Amor Flowerday (09:03)
Of course.
Lawrence (09:04)
without it without a doubt. but I I mean I do I do see see you know that how things have changed. tell me about technology from you know back in twenty twelve when you first first got involved with with with the industry. W what sort of technology did did they have to
I suppose assist these you know, advisors.
Amor Flowerday (09:28)
So we thought we were really out there and and changing
Lawrence (09:29)
You work with
Amor Flowerday (09:32)
the industry because we could chat on our email. So
Lawrence (09:36)
Okay.
Amor Flowerday (09:37)
that was high tech and and that was, you know, and you couldn't do that on Gmail yet. It was really out there. And I if I remember right, it was on Microsoft and it it was just this was technology that no one else had.
Lawrence (09:53)
Okay.
Amor Flowerday (09:53)
And it allowed
us to work on systems all over the world. So I was based here in South Africa and I could communicate freely with the team in Dubai. And we also had phone systems where actual phone where we had little headpieces and you would just dial a code to
Lawrence (10:07)
Wait, we have to find
Amor Flowerday (10:13)
speak to your advisor. I think it was still the old Avaya phones, and those were
Lawrence (10:16)
No I have a time for it.
Amor Flowerday (10:20)
Those were the thing, like no one knew what they were. They were just so high tech. And but they they did plug into the old-fashioned telephone, you know, connectors against the wall kind of thing. And
Lawrence (10:32)
Right.
Amor Flowerday (10:33)
never mind the fact that South Africa is still two decades behind anyone else with a lot of technology and development. That was still we were still way ahead of anyone else.
Lawrence (10:45)
How is how is South Africa so far behind? What you what you mean by that they're still so far behind? In terms of what?
Amor Flowerday (10:51)
So we've got
we've got all the technology. It's the trust and capability that's not quite on the same
Lawrence (10:55)
Okay, I can see that.
Amor Flowerday (10:57)
level. The younger generations love it. They're using everything. You would very seldom and I think a lot of countries feel the same where the older generations don't take part. But when I tell you, my mom and dad don't even know what Instagram is. They they they have Facebook and that is the extent of their this is how we connect with people on the outside.
Lawrence (11:13)
So
Amor Flowerday (11:20)
So there there's so much that is available, but I would say everyone over about 55 is not necessarily engaging it the way that they could and benefit from it.
Lawrence (11:35)
That that I can see. So what you're saying is more it's an age demographic thing, but that sounds also more of a cultural I would say a cultural phenomenon, you know, that you know, fifty five plus it's maybe it's not that, you know, they don't
know about it or they don't wanna know but it's just they just don't have interest or in it.
Amor Flowerday (11:54)
There's actually another part
of our country also not part of it. So in our rural communities, we don't necessarily have access to Wi-Fi like you do
Lawrence (12:02)
Okay.
Amor Flowerday (12:03)
everywhere else. They they don't have the phone lines, they don't have the in South Africa we don't have Starlink from Elon Musk. I mean it's banned in our country. So it it's it's a very different story. You do have to either have fiber or find different ways of connecting to Wi-Fi.
Lawrence (12:22)
Well, I mean, I think, you know, certainly any rural community in any, you know, sizable country will they're gonna have communication challenges. That that goes without saying. I lived in France for 10 years in in the middle of the countryside and I think we were my house was 10 kilometers away from the nearest what would you call it telecommunicable broadband station. So I think I got something like
what was it? What's what's below a what's below a megabyte? Kilobyte. I think I got three I got about three hundred kilobytes of of broadband speed. And so
Amor Flowerday (12:59)
You can't even imagine that in a country like France.
Lawrence (13:02)
Right. So but that you know, they're still pretty behind also. you know, you know, no d offence to any French people listening, but you are.
Amor Flowerday (13:09)
Ha ha ha.
Lawrence (13:10)
yeah, so but yeah, so I I understand that. But I do I going back to the culture thing, I think you know, I don't have an Instagram account and I don't have a Facebook account. And it it isn't because I'm not interested or anything like that, but
Amor Flowerday (13:23)
Should we ask how old you are?
Lawrence (13:28)
It isn't to do with the age, it's because I just find it noise. You know, there's
Amor Flowerday (13:32)
Mm.
Lawrence (13:33)
I totally understand that you know the the benefits or there are advantages to social media. Of course I understand that. But for me personally, I find it a distraction at best. you
Amor Flowerday (13:45)
Sure.
Lawrence (13:46)
know, I I'm not interested in what some person one stupid thing they've done which has gone viral or whatever. I don't care about that. So and maybe that is my age, you know.
Yeah, I but I I just find that for me, I it's not something that I wake up and go, I'm gonna have a look at at that. I just it it just I just find it nonsense and and noisy. So maybe that's you know the same in South Africa for for those in their mid fifties and above. But you know
Amor Flowerday (14:14)
To be fair,
I I won't let my ten year old turning eleven soon, I won't let her go on any social media or any so she cannot use the internet without going on our specific device that's got control on it and settings on it. And
Lawrence (14:30)
Mm-hmm.
Amor Flowerday (14:31)
she's got no social media account. She has no access to actual smartphone or anything like that.
And w with my two older daughters, the first time they had access was at the age of sixteen.
Lawrence (14:45)
Okay. Well that's you know, you're obviously a you know number one parent of the year.
Amor Flowerday (14:51)
Yeah.
Lawrence (14:51)
unfortunately I can't say the same. however, my my children will certainly I've got two adult children, so they can do what they like. within
Amor Flowerday (15:00)
Yeah.
Lawrence (15:01)
reason still. but but I also have a a ten year old and I'm afraid she she doesn't live with me. but I'm not gonna point fingers or or blame her mum 'cause her mum's great. but she does have
you know, an iPhone, albeit w it's only got her sisters and her brothers and her mum and I on it. So, you know.
Amor Flowerday (15:18)
Yeah.
Lawrence (15:19)
But she does unfortunately have access to little little snippets of social media which I don't agree with. So I'm with you, but sometimes it's it's all about choosing your battles and that that's one that I'm afraid I'm I'm I'm not gonna win. So
Amor Flowerday (15:35)
Mm-hmm.
Lawrence (15:36)
you know I keep an eye. So kudos to you for obviously maintaining that, which I think is is extremely important.
So so after your your investment side of the thing or working with financial advisors, you never had any thoughts of going becoming an advisor yourself?
Amor Flowerday (15:54)
No, never. It's
Lawrence (15:55)
Not
Amor Flowerday (15:55)
it's never I I think it's a huge responsibility understanding the risk and really knowing that
look, people firstly shouldn't invest money unless they can't afford to lose money. But we have to be realistic about this. Sometimes people
Lawrence (16:10)
Mm-hmm.
Amor Flowerday (16:14)
do it out of a place of if I don't take this chance, I never will.
Lawrence (16:20)
Mm-hmm.
Amor Flowerday (16:20)
You know, so they do take a risk and they can't always afford to lose that money. And
Lawrence (16:25)
Yeah.
Amor Flowerday (16:26)
I just think there's such a I think I'm too emotional for it. I I can
Lawrence (16:30)
Okay.
Amor Flowerday (16:31)
easily cut off from a lot of situations, but if I had to think of someone
financially changed because of something that I advised them on. And and in good faith, not because of lack of knowledge or anything. Anything can go wrong in today's market. I mean who saw COVID coming? Who saw the war coming in February?
Lawrence (16:51)
Yeah.
Amor Flowerday (16:54)
You know, like none of us well there were hints, but none of us
Lawrence (16:57)
Well.
Amor Flowerday (16:58)
actually saw real life those happenings materializing.
Lawrence (17:01)
No material. No.
Amor Flowerday (17:04)
so I I think I've always been
quite hesitant about it. I respect everyone in the industry. I
Lawrence (17:10)
Yeah, that's what I
Amor Flowerday (17:12)
think they do amazing work. But I would rather support than take that on emotionally.
Lawrence (17:19)
No, I I think that's a very a very wise take on on it and I do I do agree. you know, investing it itself, as you said, it's you shouldn't do it unless you are willing to have full economic loss effectively. you know, and and I know that both of us have worked with with a number of investors over the over the years that you know
that is and it's proved difficult. you know, because like you say, there are situations where there are, you know, pensioners in their eighties, you know, who this is their their life savings and things have gone wrong, they haven't been redeemed or whatever it might be. And that is a difficult situation to you know detach yourself from emotionally. So I I totally understand your viewpoint. because that can't be easy. you know, and and money itself is a
Whilst, you know, we the old adage that's the root of all evil, I don't believe that. I think it brings people enormous pleasure and happiness. I I you know, again, the the the saying that money can't buy you happiness, I totally disagree. I think it it absolutely can because it it prevents all the worry about where am I gonna, you know, how am I gonna put food on the table, you know, how am I gonna get new school shoes for the kids and etc. And you know, a a mum and dad okay. So, you know, and if you don't have money
you know, money issues, it's life is a lot easier place to be. There's no doubt about that. but that leads me on to kind of, you know, I suppose going into the sort of banking side of things. I had a chat with a mortgage advisor the other day and we were laughing that, you know, back in the nineties, you know, if you had, you know, if you were on a okay salary, you know, that'd give you and you had, let's say, I don't know,
a just an o an okay deposit for for a property. Banks would take your arm off to give you the the mortgage. Okay. And I was talking to her about, you know, a house purchase in the coming months, not for me personally, but we were talking about this the whole the whole process and she said that you know nowadays they with the AML, you know, checks and all this sort of thing, they want to know where your money's come from. You know, what how hang on, what how have you got
twenty thousand saved. Where did it come from? You're like, well it's none of your business. It's my but you know, she just said that the R yeah. So she
Amor Flowerday (19:39)
Has it been taxed?
Lawrence (19:42)
you know, she said, and we were laughing at the the change since then in the last you know twenty, thirty years, how stringent it's become where you have to prove how you've got your money, whereas before it was like you've got money, we'll give you the mortgage, you know, they were you know so is it a massive overhaul. is it the same in in South Africa?
Amor Flowerday (20:03)
So it completely is. It really is. But there so we've got such a informal banking well, it's not really a banking setup. It's almost like a savings setup that is culturally known in in South Africa. And to explain it fully, I have to give you a bit of background on it. So firstly it's called stokvel
Lawrence (20:25)
Yeah, but the cool.
Amor Flowerday (20:27)
Okay. More than half of South Africans' adult population.
Lawrence (20:33)
Yeah.
Amor Flowerday (20:33)
belongs to some kind of stokvel Now you can have this for
Lawrence (20:34)
Okay. Yeah, you can
Amor Flowerday (20:39)
a burial policy for your family or for yourself. You could have this for festive season, grocery shopping in a community. You can have it and this is my favorite one. It's the one that I have personally belonged to before. It's called a Gooi Gooi So that's a it's a
traditional a stokvel that rotates where people put funds in. And and basically a stokvel comes from the the old eighteen hundreds, where the British settlers used to have stock fares and at those stock fares they have to they used to have rotation of who had auction on their stock and who traded, that kind of thing. So the rural communities kind of adapted that theory
to the finances.
Lawrence (21:32)
Okay
Amor Flowerday (21:32)
And back in the day, and the first one I ever took part
in, I don't know if you guys have this in the UK, but a business used to have a petty cash box, that little silver safe kind of box, okay, with a key. So the first stokvel I ever belonged to, we were 10 friends.
Lawrence (21:42)
Right. Yeah, yeah.
Amor Flowerday (21:51)
We each put in 500 Rand a month, and it was on a rotation method, and it was called a Gooi gooi So gooi gooi me.
Lawrence (22:00)
The point
Amor Flowerday (22:01)
means throwing your money in or you know adding something to a pot and and yeah we all put our money in on a monthly basis. So how it worked is every month the 500 Rand got paid out to a different person in the group.
So by the end of the whole rotation, everyone had a a a lump sum during that year that they could spend on whatever was necessary, whether it was school fees, whether it would be something specific that you saved for your house, anything like that. So that was a that was the old fashioned, very traditional, how people started this. And it's only based on trust.
Lawrence (22:30)
Okay.
Amor Flowerday (22:48)
Just based on trust and supporting community. So one of the main words connected to stokvel is Ubuntu. And that basically means I am because we are. And and you can't be yourself or or be
Lawrence (22:59)
Okay. Okay.
Amor Flowerday (23:06)
like in the how it started,
and that is the the old-fashioned way. mean young millennials under 35 actually using the same concept and buying property. But so they open up a group bank account.
They don't draw from it. There is no rotation of payments. What they decide to do is actually grow their wealth. They use exactly the same method that their their ancestors and everyone used, their goggles, that's how they would call it. They use the same method, the same principle, except they don't draw that money.
Lawrence (23:36)
Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.
Amor Flowerday (23:44)
They they choose a high investment account. They start contributing on a monthly basis. Usually it grows for about five to ten years, and then they they have their own committee with a treasurer, with a secretary, where it's it's very structured and set up. And then they decide to either buy a apartment building together or they buy a property that they fix up and then resell.
Lawrence (24:09)
Okay.
Amor Flowerday (24:13)
for a profit, which is which is amazing because this this very basic community concept has basically grown into the millennials growing their family wealth on it.
Lawrence (24:18)
That's
incredible. That's an that's an amazing concept and and and so even the the the rural
original version, the or the Gooi Gooi or the others, are they still in in force today? Do they still happen? Yes.
Amor Flowerday (24:41)
Yes. So millions. There are millions invested in it. And currently today, more than half South
Africans, adult South Africans, have some kind of stokvel. Currently live.
Lawrence (24:51)
That's
that's amazing. So effectively there's no there's no bank. So so if you if you have a community one, for example, this they don't put their money in the bank. Who holds the money?
Amor Flowerday (25:02)
So they they do. So nowadays they do.
They open up a group account with a high interest rate.
Lawrence (25:07)
Right.
Okay.
Amor Flowerday (25:10)
and and they'll put the money in there. So what
happens if they they have several signatories on the account and one
Lawrence (25:16)
Okay.
Amor Flowerday (25:17)
person can't go and draw any money from it. There's even a app called stokveller I think I saw the other day, where the app
Lawrence (25:25)
Right.
Amor Flowerday (25:25)
handles everything, all the admin. You go on the app, log into your bank and make your monthly contribution. It is they there's even a association
Lawrence (25:34)
That's what I think.
Amor Flowerday (25:37)
in South Africa now for stokvel
To be registered so that people that want to join can can actually see how it's being monitored
Lawrence (25:45)
Yeah and with
Amor Flowerday (25:47)
and how people are keeping to their rules. Because you if even if it's not your rotation on one of the ones that pay out, if you have a life emergency, you can still put in an appeal or not appeal really a request to have the payout earlier.
Lawrence (26:03)
Yeah.
Amor Flowerday (26:06)
And if the whole group agrees, then obviously you'll only
benefit again later because you're now back of the queue. And
Lawrence (26:12)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amor Flowerday (26:14)
it's all about how these things are governed and it's so informal in the actual bank structure that they can't control or or tell anyone how they have to govern it. The community decides this is how we want it to work. These are our rules. Someone can
Lawrence (26:27)
Okay. That's brilliant. Yeah.
Amor Flowerday (26:33)
miss a payment but this is how we're gonna fix it.
Lawrence (26:36)
Yeah, that's brilliant. I love that. That's real true human element stuff, without a doubt. And I I just think that concept's incredible. My my qu so let me just understand. So if you're in a in a gooigooi and you put it there's ten of you and you put five hundred grand in, so you've got five five grand going in a month, how much is given to each person on that rotation? How much do you get back? You get five thousand.
Amor Flowerday (27:00)
The full amount? Yes.
Lawrence (27:03)
So even if you've put in
On the first month you only put five hundred in, all of a sudden what, your name comes out of a hat and you get you get the full five thousand? Yes.
Amor Flowerday (27:11)
The full part, yes.
Lawrence (27:14)
And then the neck and then but then obviously it it goes down to nine people, so you're then excluded for the next Wow.
Amor Flowerday (27:19)
Exactly. But you still contribute to every other part until it's you again.
Lawrence (27:24)
Of course. No, understood. That's I think the the word you used earlier was I mean trust has to be I mean that is that just draws
I don't know. I don't even know how to feel about that. I think that's an incredible that's an incredible concept because th the whole trust thing, you'd I can understand it from certain the old rural communities where they they were tight knit, very close knit, so everybody knew everybody
Amor Flowerday (27:50)
And desperate.
Lawrence (27:51)
else. I think that's you know what a what a brilliant, brilliant way. I know there was something, I don't know if it still happens, but
in France many years ago, my the in the little little villages in the in the you know I would say the the provinces out in the countryside, you know, there is a like a local sort of committee and you know everyone, you know, every every habitant of that village or hamlet, they put a little a contribution into the the community. And at Christmas
there was they would someone would go round with like a a food box to the elderly. So it it's not the same but it's similar, where they they obviously paid into a little bit of a community pot and then, you know, they would someone would go around at Christmas time and particularly if there were, you know, elderly people living on their own or they'd lost their, you know, their spouse or something, then they they everyone would get a Christmas box or something of food or something. So yeah, similar I I
Amor Flowerday (28:50)
That's amazing. Can you imagine everyone
applied that to to life? That would be amazing.
Lawrence (28:55)
How would it tell me that
was my question to you? How do you how look at banking now, you know, and how individual it is, that sort of thing, and we're trusting our, you know, our our earnings, our money with some of these massive conglomerates. you know, I personally I have a I have a digital bank which is I have to say it's absolutely amazing. It works brilliantly for me, but I've never spoken to anybody. I've never had a I've never had a message
Amor Flowerday (29:21)
Yeah.
Lawrence (29:24)
for anybody. It's all completely app based. and it's it's actually it's so good. It's very user friendly. And I'm okay with that. But now that you know you've just you know presented this all you know still existing concept of a stokvel I mean
Amor Flowerday (29:39)
I'm currently growing at a rate that you can't imagine.
Lawrence (29:43)
I mean amazing. I'm and I'm just like what do you think? Do you think that concept would work elsewhere in the world?
Given the different cultures that we we know exist.
Amor Flowerday (29:55)
Look, I think dependent on that governance of that specific stokvel you know, whoever the the group chooses as being in charge, it can only work as good as the governance of the stokvel So don't get me wrong, I'm sure there has been a lot of unsuccessful stokvel in South Africa because of someone not keeping to what they were supposed to or doing something they weren't supposed to do. But in general it's got
Lawrence (30:20)
Mm.
Amor Flowerday (30:22)
a really, really good reputation and I think
Over the rest of the world, it's the same kind of feeling.
Lawrence (30:28)
Yeah.
Amor Flowerday (30:29)
With with South Africa, it started out of desperation. Not,
Lawrence (30:32)
Okay.
Amor Flowerday (30:33)
I mean, back in the day, in rural areas, not everyone had the access or were allowed to have a normal standard bank account. It just wasn't the norm. You know, there were so many restrictions, and it was such a bad time that
Lawrence (30:43)
Okay.
Amor Flowerday (30:50)
people had to think outside the box.
But what they've done, they've used this concept that came out of a place of desperation and they've grown it into a way to actually grow their wealth. You know, it it's not someone complaining and and no offense to any youngsters saying I can't afford a home, but they're buying five iced coffees a day, you know, that kind of thing. It's actual youngsters going out there and deciding I'm going to use this concept.
and grow my own personal wealth with a bunch of friends and and we're gonna buy a business or a property or a block of apartments. And and it's sad so a lot of things that happens in South Africa has been
born out of desperation or lack thereof. And I think that is what
Lawrence (31:42)
No, understood. And would you say
Amor Flowerday (31:44)
made it work.
Lawrence (31:45)
would would you say that you know the the concept, stokvel concept, is is that something that you teach your children? Is it something that, you know, adults with children is this do they they talk to them about that, they explain, you know, the concept and and the use of it?
Amor Flowerday (32:02)
So my kids only my two older kids, the one is twenty-two and the other one twenty-four, they only really learned about it in high school when they had a lot more
Zulu friends specifically whose families took part in it and they just loved the idea. They they love it. So there I think it was when they were in grade nine or ten that they actually as a group of friends did this whole stokvel thing. And I know it sounds silly because they ended
Lawrence (32:28)
I don't have
Amor Flowerday (32:31)
up
Buying a PlayStation or something or Nintendo, I can't even remember what it was. But but
Lawrence (32:34)
Yeah, yeah.
Amor Flowerday (32:37)
the concept was you know born out
Lawrence (32:38)
Well,
Amor Flowerday (32:40)
of the stokvel principle. And and we just said, look, we're not gonna buy this, it's a very expensive game, it's going to be outdated in two years' time, and you know, there's stuff we'll pay for and stuff we won't pay for. So
They got together with their friends and they were like, We've got
Lawrence (32:57)
Yeah.
Amor Flowerday (32:59)
this brilliant idea and we can all we can
Lawrence (33:01)
Nice time.
Amor Flowerday (33:02)
it can go to different homes and they made it work.
Lawrence (33:05)
That's amazing. And I love that. I I just, you know, for me I find the being a bit of a you know, I'm a bit of a soppy, soft touch, you know, the the key points or certainly the key takeaways for me on on a stokvel is is purely community and the trust level and basically all work actually in real life all pulling together in the same direction to you know to to reach a goal. And I just
find that so inspiring because it's not in the in the UK that it's a very much you know dog eat dog every man for himself sort of scenario and and I feel that you know that's a shame. but I think you know what a what a cracking concept and particularly if youngsters are doing that. And if I was ever you know to you know be a a school teacher I would present that. I think it's a brilliant thing to you know for youngsters.
you know, to to do because it gets them all working together. You know, nobody is having, you know, special treatment. It's a a purely universal, you know, everyone, you know, running in the same direction. I think that's a I just think it's super inspiring. So thank you for sharing that. I think that's amazing. So
Amor Flowerday (34:18)
It's
almost like they learn about not just having instant gratification as well. They learn to be patient and wait for that reward, you know?
Lawrence (34:28)
I mean the the lessons are I mean that to just go on, don't they? I mean, to have that patience and and realise that this is this is long term. You know, yes, short term stuff is great, but it's you know, things that are really worthwhile are worth waiting for. So yeah, I think that's what a what a cracking concept. And the fact that it's still prevalent today in South Africa I I I think is testament to, you know, that community that community start that
you know, obviously where where it was born, I think that's amazing. So I'd be interesting to see how, you know, major banks over here or across the world would I dunno adapt to I don't know, come up with a new, you know, investment savings account specifically for, you know, that sort of thing. I don't know, they I guess they may well there might be something like that available. I don't know. It's just not out in the public. It's is is
Yeah.
Amor Flowerday (35:25)
think culturally we might be surprised at how many countries do partake in something similar.
I I I don't know if it's the thing is it's grown so quickly in South Africa, it literally contains millions. And youngsters have
Lawrence (35:40)
Right.
Amor Flowerday (35:42)
developed apps to manage these
stock files and they they've I mean they've really they've
Brought this into the
next century on a level where you can't imagine. And and they're making it work to buy. I mean, what 24 at 24 did you consider putting money together with your friends so you guys could buy a business or buy a apartment building? It's exactly
Lawrence (36:05)
No, I was far too I was too selfish and and only concentrating on
on making money myself and screw the next person. I don't care. Yeah,
Amor Flowerday (36:12)
Ha ha ha.
Lawrence (36:14)
that that that is the thing. The the other thing that I find it brings is even if you have got let's say you've got youngsters still at school maybe and they decide to let's create a a stock file with with our with our mates because we wanna get a new whatever, a new
slide for the school playground or something, I don't know. Right. It it it means that in order can to contribute, they have to work. They have
Amor Flowerday (36:42)
Yes.
Lawrence (36:43)
to do something to be able to contribute, right? So
Amor Flowerday (36:47)
Yes.
Lawrence (36:48)
inadvertently it pushes people into into work. And I I mean it's a fantastic concept. And whether that means going to the neighbors and washing the car
trimming their hedge or what just finding some job to do so that they can then get involved. It it kick starts that, you know, that work ethic in in youngsters, which I'm afraid to say I don't see here in the UK due to social media influences, I'm afraid. so yeah, I think that what a I mean it's it seems to be the gift that keeps on giving you know the stock cell
Amor Flowerday (37:22)
And
and we we both know what it feels like that first time where you contribute to something outside of yourself, where you you basically pay
Lawrence (37:27)
But you look for the
Amor Flowerday (37:32)
for something that you're not benefiting for from, it's the most amazing feeling. And for kids to learn that by actually doing that, I think is is brilliant. The other thing is I think it's so important for kids their first jobs to be something physical.
Lawrence (37:49)
Yeah.
Amor Flowerday (37:50)
and not necessarily
digital. And that is because whatever role they play in life, whether they are a boss, whether they a stay-at-home mom, I think they need to understand the the the actual effort that goes into anyone in a physical employment position to have that respect for it.
Lawrence (38:10)
No, I I I agree. I have a I good lord, I've done all sorts of jobs and most of them were labouring, landscape gardening, that sort of thing. but I agree with you, I think being involved and particularly the service industry, which is in the UK particularly is so poorly
remunerated. The the pay is terrible for bartenders, waitresses, waiters, etc. and it's a it's such a shame and they it's it's a it's a part of the the industry or the part of of life that I have immense respect for because I work behind the bar but I did it for different reasons. it was I loved it, you know, the fact that the fact that I actually worked three three bars and the fact that there was a a
a dance school in the local town was was always quite good for me too. So but yeah I think I totally agree with you. I think you know if kids can step away from the screen and actually do something interactive physically then you know that's gotta be a good thing, hasn't it? So
Amor Flowerday (39:10)
Hm, for sure.
Lawrence (39:12)
well listen, Amor, thank you so much for joining me. an incredible concept, Stockville, and I I wish that anyone listening, you know, have a think about it, chat to your mates.
think of something that you can all potentially pull towards as a goal and you know elect a treasurer or whatever you like and
Amor Flowerday (39:32)
Mm-hmm.
Lawrence (39:32)
and just we'll see those bonds of trust really tested, wouldn't we? So but I I thank all very much for for joining me. You've been a revelation and you know, truly inspirational. So thank you so much for your time. and I look forward to chatting to you next time.
Amor Flowerday (39:46)
Thank you so much for having me.
Lawrence (39:48)
My pleasure. See you. Bye.
Amor Flowerday (39:50)
Bye