From elite rowing to the realities of family law and building a business of her own, Brynne Allen has learned that success is rarely a straight line. She joins Nigel to explore resilience, ambition, motherhood and the lessons that shape us along the way.
From elite rowing to the realities of family law and building a business of her own, Brynne Allen has learned that success is rarely a straight line. She joins Nigel to explore resilience, ambition, motherhood and the lessons that shape us along the way.
Reach out to Brynne:
Website - www.orionfamilylaw.com.au
Linkedin - www.linkedin.com/in/brynneallen
Key Topics
Bryn Allen’s sports background and transition to law
The influence of coaching skills on legal practice
Balancing career and motherhood
Client-centered approach in family law
The role of mental resilience and discipline
Building Orion Family Law with a focus on quality and flexibility
The importance of understanding clients’ emotional and legal needs
Use of technology and AI in family law
Strategies for effective communication with vulnerable clients
Sound Bites
"The long game is about patience and persistence"
"Every family is different, there's no one-size-fits-all"
"Success is about the blend, not just the size of the business"
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Bryn Allen and her background
01:53 Bryn’s journey from elite rowing to family law
03:56 The influence of sports and coaching skills on her legal career
05:47 Balancing motherhood and a legal career
08:10 Her involvement with sports associations and supporting athletes
10:04 Early experiences in rowing and coaching
12:10 Teamwork and individual effort in rowing
14:05 Lessons learned from competing at a national level
16:10 Transition from sports to law and the discovery of family law
18:01 Moving to Melbourne and establishing Orion Family Law
20:08 The client-centered, coaching approach in her legal practice
21:55 Handling vulnerable clients and building trust
24:08 The use of technology and AI in family law
25:58 The future of Orion Family Law and growth plans
28:01 Balancing ambition, family, and personal growth
29:58 Reflections on success and the long game
31:57 Light-hearted questions and Bryn’s TV series analogy
Nigel (00:05)
Hello and welcome. And today on the Priority Lane podcast we're joined by Brynne Allen, founder and principal of Orion Family Law, a specialist family law based in Melbourne.
Brynn is an accredited family law specialist with extensive experience advising clients through complex relationship, parenting, and financial matters. She is known for taking a strategic, practical, and highly personalized approach to family law, helping clients navigate some of the most significant transitions of their lives. Before becoming a lawyer, Brynne was an Australian and state representative rower, an experience that shaped her understanding of high performance, discipline, resilience, and the pressures that come.
with demanding careers. Today, Brynn also has another very different kind of high performance role. She's a mum of two young children in their early school years. Like many working parents, she's navigating the constant juggle of building a business, leading a team, practicing law and being present for her family while trying to find the right balance between ambition and the realities of everyday life.
That combination of professional experience, high performance sport, and the lived experience of motherhood gives Brynn a unique perspective on relationships, family, career, and the many competing priorities we all face. Brynne, welcome to the podcast.
Brynne (01:25)
Thanks for having me. I sound exhausted after even listening to the opening.
Nigel (01:30)
How's your day been today?
Brynne (01:32)
It's been great. We're pretty busy in the office today. Got the kids on school holidays so the juggle doesn't stop.
Nigel (01:41)
Juggle doesn't stop and now with school holidays. So they're they're in primary school, are they? Or whereabouts are they?
Brynne (01:47)
Yeah,
I've got one in kinder and one in primary school. So the balance of kinder hours not being available and school not being available. Very grateful for my mother-in-law and my partner that have a bit more flexibility to take the reins while I'm working, which is nice.
Nigel (02:04)
Yep, very good. So school school holidays hasn't that you've got everything under control?
Brynne (02:09)
Yeah, like every mum, I think we manage and organise and get the Excel spreadsheets out and have to
Nigel (02:14)
Yeah.
Brynne (02:15)
communicate a lot more than we ordinarily would, but they're all happy and that's the important part.
Nigel (02:22)
Very good, that's correct. Now we were introduced by Nicola, Nicola Beswick, who was on the podcast talking about PFAN back in May. That was a a great podcast. how do you know Nicola?
Brynne (02:37)
So Nicola and I met through the Australian Netball Players Association.
So through my background of sport, I sort of made networks and connected and worked with a number of the players associations. And I think it was earlier this year, partnered with the ANPA or the Netball Players Association, just to provide family law advice and education to any players and the network there in relation to anything arising from protection of assets to
breakdown of relationships, but then also things like managing retirement and the pressures and things to look out for after that. So the Players Association works with a number of people that have partnered up and Nicola is obviously their financial advisor in relation to that space. So it's been really brilliant to able to combine, I guess, two loves of mine, which is sport and the family law as well, and sort of being able to help particularly high performance athletes and people with that same sort of shared love for sport.
just to navigate what's required when relationships break down or perhaps when they enter new relationships to protect themselves.
Nigel (03:50)
Okay, okay. So
so hence that's why you went for a players association as opposed to the governing body as such?
Brynne (03:58)
Yeah, think, I don't think it was necessarily a conscious decision. I think it's just been through networks and people that we've met. So I did a lot of, I do a lot of work with the AFL Players Association and I think there's a lot of internal moving parts of people that go from one organisation to another association and just staying in contact with people and maintaining those relationships has sort of allowed the opening of...
those doors and those networks to sort of assist where I can. think I'm a mum of a boy and a girl and now that my daughter's taking interest in sport herself, it's sort of, I guess the only conscious part for me has been to make sure that I give back in terms of female dominated sports as well. So that's where the Netball Players Association has been a nice alignment. It has also been nice to work and sort of see the development of
work that's been done for women in AFL and even the basketball players association as well.
Nigel (05:01)
Yep, okay. Okay.
So so is there a similar type thing for rowing or did you have an a alignment with Netball prior to this or or
Brynne (05:11)
No, in fact, I was the last time I ever did anything in netball was at school.
Nigel (05:16)
Okay.
Brynne (05:17)
So I used to, I used to row full time in my teens to my early 20s. But there isn't rowing is such a small sport. There isn't a players association or rowers association necessarily in Australia. There's rowing Australia and those national governing bodies and, you know, we've got contacts there.
if
needed they know where to find me. So yeah, more the players association is just an interesting space because they largely deal with wellbeing programs and looking after the athlete holistically beyond just the sport. So that's been really my piece to come in and say well if there is an athlete not necessarily about their performance on court or on the field but more so looking at just trying to provide education to that athlete holistically around the
of their life and what else could eventually may potentially have impact on their performance on the court but more trying to those organisations or associations tend to provide a lot more well-being and education programs which just aligns well with what I can offer and how I can help out.
Nigel (06:32)
Okay, okay, and well, maybe by the sounds of it, the rowers may have a players association. you y you may set that up yourself. So
Brynne (06:39)
Yeah, yeah, true. In my spare time.
Nigel (06:46)
your your life has been strongly shaped by sports and now you operate your own business. So I'm gonna take you back to a to a young Brynne. What was the first organized sport you played and also your first paying job you had?
Brynne (07:03)
My f-
I was very lucky to go to school that did offer sport at the school. So I was involved in netball and basketball from early years, but I was hopeless at it. I was terrible. was not very athletic. Well, was, yeah, I was
Nigel (07:16)
You can't be good at everything, I guess.
Brynne (07:20)
pretty bad at it. But my brother was actually rowing at the time and he's two years older than me. So he sort of led the way in relation to exposing that world to me.
I fell in love with it by the looks of it but then when I actually went down to a boat shed and had a go and like I'm six foot two so the height definitely had an advantage but it seemed to really gel and find my sport. I was quite successful at it and I put that down largely to the coaches that I had. I was really lucky at being exposed to some brilliant coaches that taught some foundations really early on in my career but also opened doors
for me. I had exposure to the New South Wales Institute of Sport coaches that were just
Nigel (08:11)
Okay.
Brynne (08:12)
coaching at my school which was you know a great...
Nigel (08:14)
wow.
Brynne (08:18)
it was a great access to or an opportunity for me to learn from those people and because they had those connections it meant that I could get talent ID'd and move into that network itself and which ultimately went from school into club level and then that meant that I...
was pretty full time in terms of six mornings a week before school and would do lunchtime sessions and then we'd have afternoon training sessions, get all my homework done on the weekend and try and make sure I could turn up to the sessions for the following Monday.
But my love of rowing really was by the time that I finished school, my first job, it was an easy transition to go into coaching because I spent so much time at the boat sheds. It seemed a pretty natural transition and the hourly rate was better than doing hospitality. But in saying that, also did hospitality in retail. So I wasn't afraid of having a couple of jobs as soon as I left school.
Nigel (09:25)
I s okay, so your first job was a a coaching gig?
Brynne (09:28)
Yeah, so I coached it at school level. So I think when I started, I had these grand ambitions that I was going to be pretty awesome and, you know, coach the first eight awesome seniors. But at that reality check of being a totally inexperienced coach was, you you can coach the juniors and you can teach them the basics. And I fell in love with it. I think I moved around a fair bit in terms of different schools. But I eventually ended up working at a school
and became their junior director of rowing at that school for a number of years and that was incredibly rewarding in terms of educating and trying to communicate with young girls at the time, so I was only coaching girls and being able to share a skill and rowing's not really one of those sports that's a 45 minute session.
at school level they're doing three or four mornings a week and
you're having to row in a crew. So you're having to learn how to manage different personalities and you're all trying to learn a skill at different levels to different speeds. So some kids can get it really quickly, the other kids need some more help and you learn how to phrase things and reframe things and reframe directions in the hope that it, you know, what might land for one of them lands for another one. So I learned, you know, extraordinary communication skills, conflict resolution for teenage girls.
and motivations and you know there's a lot of skills that I had to hone and develop through the coaching process. Yeah, so it's been, that was a really good foundation in hindsight.
Nigel (11:12)
So with I I guess that's right. When with rowing, let's say the eights, for example, with other team sports, football, cricket or whatever, if you've got a weak position you can identify that and you can play around it. But I guess in rowing, that's a lot more difficult to do. Is that correct? That if if I don't 'cause you're working together as a team, would a weakness really be exposed more in a rowing or less in a rowing environment?
Brynne (11:39)
I think in rowing, probably like every other individual sport, as an individual you need to know what your strengths and weaknesses are. But when you get selected into a crew it comes down to the individual effort. But then when you're in the crew you've got to be able to blend in or be able to adapt.
not that it's, I think there's a lot of discretion in terms of how your weakness would show up as opposed to where your strengths could show up. So, and I don't think that just comes down to your physical performance. I think that can come down to, you know, your mental performance and, you know, your personality and behaviour and attitude can, that might be your weakness and it's just not going to gel. Seven other, nine, eight other people are not going to want to be, have you in the boat if your attitude stinks.
Nigel (12:30)
Yeah, yeah.
Brynne (12:31)
So yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot to it.
It really is one of those sports from a young age a lot of kids learn a lot about themselves pretty quickly through that sport.
Nigel (12:43)
Now yeah, we we mentioned in the in the intro that you represented your state and your country in rowing and now coming coming through that process, was there one event, one meet where you thought, wow, I could have a future in this sport?
Brynne (13:00)
I was really lucky from an early age. So I only ever made one Australian team, which was an under 18 Australian team. I think with hindsight, we won a bronze medal. So we were lucky to go to world championships and we went, we, I was in the women's four, Coxless four, and we got a bronze medal and.
Nigel (13:23)
You're in the number three state, was that correct?
Brynne (13:25)
yes, yep, you've done your research.
But that wasn't easy. was, I was one of those kids that was learning a lot about myself at the time. So personality conflict was something that was present. The training aspect, I'd never trained at that level before. So there was a whole lot that you're learning as a 16 year old in that process. And I probably truly, truly didn't, wasn't very present for the experience, if that makes sense. Like whilst I was there, I sort of in my head,
a lot and didn't really understand how unique it was. I had this assumption that, well this is it and now it just keeps going. And I think as I got older and went into trading full time and was trying to make it back into the team, it obviously gets a lot harder as you...
progress and things like injuries and getting with I had glandular fever one year and but you keep turning up and you keep trying and then I was successful to keep making New South Wales teams and senior New South Wales teams but I never just quite made that, wasn't able to go back from senior state level into the higher teams which I'm
To some degree, I'm glad I didn't, but at the same point in time, obviously very disappointing I never quite made it again, but I just wasn't fast enough in hindsight. But what I got out of attending and keep turning up and the training, I loved training, it was great. It really was something that...
I thrived at and then racing I just could never produce the performances that I felt like I deserved but also there's a lot to in hindsight that you could say were reasons why but ultimately it just came down to I wasn't fast enough but so I think when you're talking about coming back to your question about whether or not to compete at that level it's sort of I don't think I had this expectation it was going to keep coming I'd
knew that I had to take the long way to get there if I was going to make it back, which taught me a lot as well about life.
Nigel (15:39)
w
well when you when you're speaking about that it's it's a lot for a young person to process and to deal with and have the maturity to, you know, deal with all this pressure and and I don't know. Well when you were speaking about that, I'm thinking well as an adult it'll be hard to sort of process all of that. As a as a young person, there's a lot to to manage with that.
Brynne (16:04)
Yeah, and I think that's why it's easy for me to say with the benefit of hindsight. So
Nigel (16:08)
Well, yeah.
Brynne (16:10)
I think it was a lot and I think that's probably also why, you know, how that skill in itself, I had to go through that so I could, you know, I look back now and say, well, that's probably why I can help people through divorces, for example, because
trying to assist people to gain insight when high emotions are running or their life is imploding and the stress levels are on, there's a lot going on. think that experience of understanding what people are trying to achieve and how to get there and my role in that is to really try and coach people through that is because from a young age I probably did put a lot of pressure on myself and I was surrounded by a lot of great coaches and people that
that I owe a lot to. But they certainly were guiding me through to the best of their abilities at the time and I was trying to understand the best of my ability at the time and working very closely with people at such a young age as a team, even though you might not have been in the team, your coach, the athlete, your peers that you're training with, that really was a team that you, even though you were trying to do your individual effort to make it onto a team, that collaboration was really important.
influenced a lot of how I sort of approach what I do today.
Nigel (17:35)
So if I take you back to say the 1st of April 2001. Okay,
Brynne (17:42)
Okay.
Nigel (17:44)
it's a warm day mid-autumn with the mercury nudging 30 degrees out in the Sydney's West.
Brynne (17:52)
Okay.
Nigel (17:53)
It's you're at
You're maneuvering a boat into position at lane five at the Sydney International Regatta Center for the New South Wales School Girls Head of the River meet.
Brynne (18:05)
Uh-huh. I'm trying to remember
Nigel (18:07)
No, so you're you're in there. You
Brynne (18:09)
how old was I in
Nigel (18:11)
Yep. Okay, so you you look across at your competitors. the dominant school at the time was PLC. I think from memory they had three other boats in the in the race.
Brynne (18:21)
Okay.
Nigel (18:21)
what's the what's the self-talk or the team talk at that moment about to start the race? What what does not just for this race but in general, when you're in the boat 60 seconds before you're about to start, what do you focus on? What the key points?
Brynne (18:39)
If this was the school going ahead of the river that I that we ended up winning and we had not
Nigel (18:44)
Yes.
Brynne (18:44)
won a race in the entire season and we had no expectation that we were going to be winning. No, do you know what can
Nigel (18:50)
Should have had some money on yourself.
Brynne (18:53)
remember that race specifically at this brilliant coach called Lizzie Chapman and we just never clicked. just hadn't we just weren't able to get a good race under us. And I remember that race and I think
all of us had siblings or had really close cousins or anything that were all rowers and the head of the river was the big thing and for somehow it just clicked that race and all I can remember was just all of us just wanted it so bad and that was it and probably when you talk about catalyst moment of how did you know I was any good at it, probably that kept me going in the sport because we had a terrible season otherwise but actually winning the head of the river and going that's all the talk you meant we just sort of had to work together like that was
it.
There is something really special about, and you don't realise it at the time, but there is something really special nerve wracking, a lot goes on when you are rowing at the Sydney International Regatta Centre. It's still one of my favourite courses but...
There's a lot of alone time in your head. just try to do a lot of breathing. You're trying to get out of the start line. You're maneuvering your boat in and there's usually, well, back when I was doing it, there was someone holding your boat and there's a lot that sensory wise is going on, but you really do.
had a coach, actually the coach that took us to the world championship, Ron Batt, had this saying that it was like, you've got to find your arousal level. And I think that's actually completely right. Anyone that's going to the race, you're trying to zone in to find where you've got enough adrenaline, but it's under control. And as a kid, used to go up to those, particularly when I was in the single scull, I used to just pretend like, whatever, I've never raced before. I don't know what this is like and just start talking to everyone and then realized, I'm just playing mind games to these poor kids.
How is this like?
Nigel (20:49)
Yeah.
Brynne (20:52)
Because I did a lot of single sculling back then and I used to think, well I'll just be so casual and nonchalant and try to bring their arousal levels down so that they're not quite ready because they've just been chatting to me the whole time. And then we get on the start line and for some reason that actually got me in the right head space because I would take myself out of being too heavily anxious or nervous about the start. So me talking to others, which took them out of their comfort zone,
And
just also calm me down to be able to say, okay, well now I'm ready to go because I've got the nervous energy out and now we can focus. And there's something incredibly special about putting yourself in that position and being ready. But you can really tell in yourself when you're ready and when you're not. Because you can also turn up to start lines knowing that you're underprepared or...
perhaps not feeling the best or that injury, yeah, then that's actually a bit of a twig, we're gonna struggle with that. So you learn a lot about yourself, you gain a lot of insight as a young athlete when you're putting yourself in that position.
Nigel (21:57)
So so I guess
you you mentioned earlier that you love training. So I guess with
Brynne (22:01)
Yes.
Nigel (22:02)
a lot of sports you get the process right and then when you're out there to perform you can fall back on your training.
Brynne (22:09)
Yeah, and I think I sort of, I had some incredible coaches and turning up, regardless of Rain Howl Shine, which is the classic one, but also regardless of how you feel, like if you're tired and you're sore, you still had to turn up. It was almost like you were a risk of, if you just didn't turn up without an excuse, you would...
be likely to jeopardise your spot in the team environment or in the squad. So you just kept turning up and I sort of resigned myself to, well, if I keep turning up, I'll get results. If I do the program, I'll get results. Which worked when I was a junior and under 23 level and then it got harder. It got harder as you tried to climb the ranks because ultimately it just came down to, well, you can keep turning up but if you still don't can't find the speed,
can't find the speed. Yeah.
Nigel (23:05)
Yeah, still gonna perform out there. Yeah. So let's
so after ro well not after writing, but you you then moved more into coaching, not just with schools but also you went to the ACT as well, is that correct?
Brynne (23:20)
Yeah, so I... My... My...
Parents were brilliant supporters of me in my rowing career, but they were adamant that I wasn't just going to row. So I at all times was studying full time whilst also trying to train. And so I finished with a law degree, but I actually had no intention of being a lawyer. So when I finished and was admitted as a solicitor, the first thing I did was take a job and become the general manager of Triathlon ACT, which I have never done a triathlon in my life.
At the time that I applied for the job, I thought there was no chance I'm going to get it.
Lo and behold, I got the job and I moved myself to Triathlon ACT and lived there for about six months. But I was lucky because it reintroduced me and I was coaching at a girls school there just to sort of keep that community around me. But I was also trying to really push into sports management at that time and I...
was able to and applied to become team manager for Rowing Australia for an underage team. Which probably the best thing that came out of the trip for me was that I actually met my current partner at that trip.
Nigel (24:39)
Was he a rower or
involved in sports as well?
Brynne (24:42)
Yeah, so my partner is a director of rowing at a school in Melbourne and he's also
Nigel (24:46)
okay.
Brynne (24:47)
coach for Australia for underage teams as well and he's brilliant at what he does. So we're still heavily involved with rowing and that community and trying to support the athletes that are going through the process as much as we can as well. So yes, I
Nigel (25:05)
Okay, so
Brynne (25:05)
found myself in Canberra and
did that for six months and then I sort of wanted to...
I just probably didn't feel challenged. I hadn't found my thing yet. And so I wanted to come back to Sydney. I moved back to Sydney, worked with a barrister who was a QC at the time. And that was, didn't grow up with lawyers around me. I didn't have a community of lawyers that I could call and be like, can I do a clerkship? I wasn't, clerkships and things weren't on my radar at all. So I managed to meet this QC and he gave me a job.
was
really to give me some exposure into law again. And he essentially said, well, look, I'll try to expose you to as many areas as I can. And if you find something you love, I'll support you to pursue that. Ultimately, I found myself in family law, was probably the first time I found an area law that clicked for me. So when you're at university and you're studying trusts and equity and real property, and it was all very
transactional to me in nature until, and I didn't have the privilege of doing family law at university. I found myself in a family law firm and getting exposure into people's lives. And I really enjoyed that finding solutions for people and trying to understand, well, what would be a property split or why wouldn't that parenting arrangement be in the best interest of that child? So really trying to be very solution focused.
and gather all the different bits of information and do bit of investigation in certain areas to sort of find the pieces so that you could actually make decisions that were very tangible to me. was pretty incredible how I went from Canberra to Sydney and found myself in a family law firm doing family law, which sort of fell into it, but I'm glad I did it that way as well.
Nigel (27:08)
Okay, so you're doing family law in Sydney.
Brynne (27:11)
Mm-hmm.
Nigel (27:12)
And how because you're in Melbourne now. How how did you end up in Melbourne?
Brynne (27:17)
Yes, I started in Sydney and did about two or three years practising as a solicitor there. Over that two to three years, my partner and I were doing long distance. So my partner's born and bred in Melbourne and I was born and bred in Sydney. Back in the day when, you know, Tiger Air was a thing and flights were only return $89. We miss Tiger Air sometimes. So it just got to the point where one of us had to move and classic
family lawyer and me said, well, we can't move for love. So both of us should be looking for work in each other's respective cities and whoever gets a better job than what they had at the time would make the move. So I was very lucky to actually through sport, find a job in Melbourne and made the move. And my career has sort of largely been developed here since then.
Nigel (28:13)
So so you you were working in a law firm in Melbourne.
Brynne (28:18)
Yes.
Nigel (28:19)
was that family law or was that what what was that?
Brynne (28:22)
Yeah,
yes. So I worked about five or six years in a specialist boutique family law firm.
Nigel (28:29)
Mm-hmm.
Brynne (28:30)
I had my my son and I decided, well, look, I've done five or six years there. I might try something else. So I got another job at another law firm and COVID hit and
At the time I was trying to come back part-time and increase back up to full-time and through COVID the firm that I went to wasn't able to offer me more, you know, the days of work that were agreed. So I went to another law firm, bigger firm that was hiring during COVID.
I was there, different ethos, different mentality, understood and got exposure to that side of family law. And then ultimately I was very successful in getting a role at my last firm and was there for about five years. And I actually became an accredited specialist whilst I was at that firm. had my daughter, was promoted to partner whilst on maternity leave and was a partner there before I decided to start.
Orion Family Law which has been going for just over 12 months now.
Nigel (29:36)
Okay, so so what what was the motivation to establishing Orion?
Brynne (29:44)
I don't know whether I'm necessarily insightful. There was a number of things at the time that were going on for me as a partner, for my family. Just needed more flexibility around that as well. And I think if I was doing a lot of internal reflection on it, a lot of my career from, if you want to say, being an athlete, going through that process and getting exposure to great coaches and then doing coaching myself and loving that and, you know, guiding young athletes.
and then falling into the law for a long period of time. The skills that I had as a coach have really helped me as a family lawyer and I really felt that...
with what I needed for my family and what I needed, I was wanting to achieve was different or misaligned with the firm that I was at. So by doing it on my own, I can dictate and manage the process for clients the way that I wanted to, which is very much, I consider myself trying to be a coach for individuals going through divorce. So working with them collaboratively as their team, understand, give them all the options
make sure that they are making really informed decisions and guiding them through the process of the separation and how you get to a formal resolution or an agreement on things. So it was born out of a few things, more time for my family as well and my kids and what they needed and the flexibility with rowing seasons still that it can...
I needed to be more available to do pick ups and drop offs in the mornings and evenings. yeah, I just was born out of a number of things and since we've started, I think I've actually just managed to secure or to work with my, you know, the hundredth client for Orion Family Law, which is...
Nigel (31:42)
there we go, congratulations.
Brynne (31:43)
Thank you. So it's been a real juggle, but it's been certainly being able to balance that being an ambitious professional, but also being an active parent. think trying to find that blend, I don't call it a balance, but it's definitely a blend.
Nigel (32:00)
And
is there any have you got the secret formula of how that blend works, or is it just day by day a set of what needs to be done?
Brynne (32:06)
I'm a massive believer
that there is no secret formula to this and that every family is so different. There's no one size fits all, but I tell you what, there's a lot of people out there talking about it and a lot of professional mothers are getting far better at communicating with each other about what works and what doesn't work. you might try one strategy one day and it worked and the next day it didn't work. it's understanding that every day is so different, but that's similar to most
people's lives. know, that's what I found interesting in every case that in every family that I get to work with is, you know, it's rarely straightforward and everyone's facing, you know, different challenges on a daily basis or a different challenge through, you know, it could be a child's needs or it could be having, a dependent parent that was living with them. There's a lot that goes on in people's lives that
I don't think there really is an algorithm. I wish there was an algorithm.
Nigel (33:08)
Yeah.
Brynne (33:09)
It'd be so much easier.
Nigel (33:11)
Well, it's w when you were talking about family law and why you liked it, it's
That solution about getting to know the clients, getting to know their situations, getting to know what's best for the children. It's seems to be far removed from contract law, trust law and all the rest, where from an outsider I would say that's more black and white, this is what the law says, there you go. Where with family law you you are really working with your clients to to create a bespoke solution for them.
Brynne (33:42)
Yeah, I think there's many lenses that we put on families when we're family lawyers because...
We're not only dealing with the law and sure there's a legal framework that we have to operate in but even our legal framework has a lot of grey and you can be quite creative. Particularly when it comes to parenting matters you can be really quite creative on how would that actually work with your child. If your child has neurodiversity what are their needs? So it's not just a standard formula that gets applied to a family and it's like well you know no risk factors it's equal shared care. Well actually no because if you've got a child a
or you've got, there are family violence risk issues, there are communication issues, there are so many other elements to it that if you can look at each family and understand what their motivators are, what's emotionally going on, what else are other stresses and trigger points that we need to be wary of that we can work to sort of create an arrangement that is going to be in the best interests of their children. And they're not all, most of them can be
incredibly difficult and challenging and but there are some that are very easy but it's you're dealing with a legal framework, you're dealing with an emotional framework, you're dealing with a psychological framework, you're dealing with a time framework as well. I mean if anyone finds themselves in litigation it's not a quick process, I usually say to people it's not a sprint, it's definitely a marathon and there's different stages in that process that you need to be aware of.
If you can ask the right questions and I tend to try and always make sure I understand the clients and, but make sure they're aware of the legal framework. Once they're aware of the legal framework, they can then make some decisions based on that. And sometimes I'll get to a mediation table and I can tell them the law and I can make all my arguments and legal submissions and use the strengths of our case weaknesses. And I can sit there at the end of the day and I'm like, what's the hesitation to sign off on this?
and it'll be an emotional trigger, for example. It could be anything, but it might come down to, well, I just can't, I'm not ready to let go of it. So there's a lot involved in the discretionary areas of what we do on a daily basis as well. it's not just legal communication or contract law, make sure your T's are crossed and your I's are dotted. It's very much, there's very grey areas in what we do.
Nigel (36:14)
So
look we we've
we've on the podcast we've been lucky enough to speak to a lot of financial advisors, Nicola being one of those. and what comes across more often than not is that financial advisory is first and foremost getting to know the client, getting to know their wishes, getting to know their goals, and then working with that to see what they can do with the financial plan going forward. Very similar to to family law by the sounds of it, getting to know the client, getting to understand what
Their goals are, what they want to achieve, what their personal situation is, and then figuring out how to deliver that under the framework of the law.
Brynne (36:53)
100%.
And in our initial conferences with clients, it's really, okay, tell me your story to date. And now we need to look forward. And what are we trying to achieve moving forward for you? We need to understand the history of the client and what they've gone through and what they've achieved to be able to assist in understanding what does the future look like for them moving forward. And we work very closely with accountants, advisors as well with people.
and
any other experts that are required to assist the family to really understand well what is actually going be either in the best interest of the children or just an equitable outcome. And it's not just, know, family lawyers shouldn't just sit there and go, it's 50-50, so just, you know, settle it and be done. Or 50-50, there's even just on the property front, there's, you know, millions of ways that you can divide the pie. And so 50-50 of what? Who's going to keep the business? And what does that mean in terms of exit of the...
other partner from that business for example. So there's a lot to consider and I think if you've got the right team around you and you should be consulting your advisors and accountants and things as well and work with them so that we know as well what does that mean in terms of okay well if we sold that asset what's the CGT component to it and not just leaving it to the client to find out that information. I think you can really assist and get to resolutions really quickly when you work with the right team for each
family.
Nigel (38:25)
Yep, okay.
Okay. So so I was looking on the on the Orion website and you you take on fewer cases or di deliberately take on fewer cases so each client has access to a senior lawyer. so
Brynne (38:37)
Yes. So what we tried, yeah.
Nigel (38:40)
Yep, sorry, go on. No, I was just going to ask so so what does that model allow you to offer clients as opposed to a normal law firm?
Brynne (38:48)
Yeah, I've deliberately decided and look, I'm still growing the business and it's only been 12
Nigel (38:53)
Mm-hmm.
Brynne (38:54)
months, but I have made a conscious decision to try and keep a smaller team and more senior practitioners in the team.
That means that we do have capacity constraints, but at the same time, also knowing what we can, where we can provide most value and where we're not the right fit for other people. And that's not to say that we exclude people or anything like that. It just comes down to, well, I also have employees and a great team that I want to preserve their longevity in our career, too. What we do is difficult and can be taxing. So I've got
I two mums in my team that work part-time, have kids, want to give them the flexibility and that mental health aspect of making sure that they're not overloaded. the days that they are working, they don't have to start from 6am and work till 9pm. Having that smaller team and working with the right clients allows us to give direct access to clients and really work as their coach.
working with a team of 10 people for example and being charged for 10 people to read the one email for example. You know we really are trying to have a hands-on knowledge of your file and if I'm not available you'd be working with one other person in my team. So between the two of us we have a good understanding of what's going on, the strategy we're employing, your life. I think it also allows people to be
not more vulnerable because I think anyone that sees a family lawyer is allowing themselves to be vulnerable but understand that we're, you know, we've got discretion. It's not going to go beyond us and we're working with you and you can tell us and that trust of working with us is we understand what you're going through and you don't need to repeat yourself 10 times about that one issue because we heard you the first time and that is being factored in how we're approaching this next step or this communication we're about to send is in line with what you've previously told us about.
this. So it allows us that intimate knowledge of the file, also allows you know cost containment for clients, but yeah it also allows that mental health for the Orion team as well.
Nigel (41:17)
Okay,
so so you've touched on the client being vulnerable when they come and see you, and obviously it's it's not a nice stage of their life. What do you would try w what's the objective of the first conversation with them? They they come and see you, they're feeling vulnerable, there's a lot going on in their lives, a lot of it not not good. What what do you try to achieve in that first meeting with them?
Brynne (41:43)
Yeah, well typically I try to actually always thank the client at the start of the meeting and that comes down to saying, look, I know I'm a complete stranger and I'm going to be asking you questions about your life that are private.
And I'm sure they didn't want to come expose them to a family lawyer. But I need them to be as vulnerable and open and transparent with me as possible because there is no one size fits all in family law. that detail or that vulnerability could impact a property settlement, could impact the safety of children or the parenting arrangements that we're going to put in place. So it is crucial to try and establish that relationship.
early on but also give that
security to the client that has to expose that it's not lost on us that we're asking very vulnerable questions, but we're to have to ask them for a very good reason to make sure that we're giving you as clear and accurate advice as we can from the beginning. And if any material fact, any material information that we find out later down the track might change our advice. So we try not to have those issues come about where it's like, you actually never told us about that.
What do mean there's a whole other property we didn't know about?
Nigel (43:06)
Yeah.
Brynne (43:07)
and that we have to deal with. Or, you know, well, we never knew that that was a risk profile or that, your partner was drinking on a daily basis or gambling. And we wouldn't know until we found, you know, we went through the bank statements, for example. So there's a lot that comes out. So trying, but also being very appreciative of people that, you know, you might be asking for 24 years of someone's life in
Nigel (43:33)
Yeah.
Brynne (43:34)
an hour, an hour and a half for initial conference. So it is.
is
you can only get so much out in the beginning and then as you're working with that person you'll find out a bit more information about things and how entrenched perhaps that position might be or in fact how flexible someone might come in and say I definitely want this and then three months later after working with you it's like actually you know I've listened to you I don't want to stay in the home anymore I'm happy for that to be solved. There's a lot of transition and movement in the scope of being separated and then getting a resolution.
in your family law matter. A lot changes.
Nigel (44:10)
Well and
I I guess it comes down to a lot of things in law or a lot of industries really is that y the service you provide is only as good as the brief that you receive. if you don't know everything it's pretty hard to get everything right.
Brynne (44:29)
Yeah, and I think that's why having the smaller team I found is certainly valuable because it is all one storage of information inside our heads or inside our database. It's not, well, I told that one person and then that never got translated through the vine to get to the person that's presenting or advocating for you at the mediation. So.
Yeah, there's a lot that can happen. There's a lot of information and it's like anything. After the initial conference we tell people that look, a lot happened just then and you divulge a lot of information. If you get home and you've got 50 questions that you didn't feel like you could ask now because it didn't come to your mind but now that you're ruminating with the information we've just given you, just shoot us an email with those questions and we can answer them.
So there's a lot that goes on in people's minds to be able to progress their matter and make sure we're getting the right outcome, not only for them and within the scope of or the framework of the legal one, but also achieving something that they need for other reasons.
Nigel (45:40)
Yeah,
so I I guess you've got to move the client through stages of you know, they have to progress and progress a relationship with you so they feel comfortable in disclosing a lot of information and going to the next level of information.
Brynne (45:54)
Yeah, and the questions that we ask allow us to give them the options. So we try and leave everyone with an action plan and understand what the options could look like for them. And our experience is sort of is knowing from the questions that we do ask and perhaps the dynamics of their relationship that or where they're at in the separation process could influence how it's going to progress on that time timeline.
Nigel (46:20)
Okay,
so do you see family law requiring a different set of skills from sort of more general law?
Brynne (46:33)
To be fair to that question, I've never practised any other area law. I do think a lot of people will say to us, gosh, you have to deal with a lot of...
personality or behaviours or there is an element of psychology to what we do in terms of helping people through naturally a very difficult time. So I would say that we do touch on that psychological element of people and having to really understand people and a lot of what we're working with is people's lives. So there's a lot of attachment to that as opposed to just the family law legislation.
or the rules.
Nigel (47:16)
Yeah.
Brynne (47:17)
So I do think to achieve a holistic outcome for clients it's understanding the whole client which is probably different to something like corporate law for example. It's not necessarily, I mean each case to their own but I'm not trying to insult any corporate lawyers out there but definitely
Nigel (47:34)
Yeah.
Brynne (47:36)
dealing with entities is probably a lot less emotionally removed.
Nigel (47:41)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So w what is the one thing you think that the industry can do better for people going through the separation process? Is there anything that can be improved? I I guess there are things that you see maybe could be simplified for them.
Brynne (48:00)
Yeah, I think that there is a lot of use of AI and I don't know whether the right balance of what is being used, like AI is getting used by a lot of clients to try and research things.
that doesn't really apply to their life, for example, or their set of facts. so in terms of what the industry could fix is there's a lot of it's expensive. So affordability for family law is one. So how do we make it more affordable? There could be our pricing is based on six minute units. So.
to 10 units every hour. So a lot of fixed fee pricing is sort of how we operate or try to offer so that people know there's a lot more transparency around costs of things. think there's a lot of avenues there if you've got an agreement, being able to try and simplify that process for people to just formalise their agreement and making sure people formalise their agreement so they're not just sort of thinking, well, that's going to be expensive, so I'm not going to do that. Well, the risk is if you don't formalise it properly, you could always expose
further down the track. So think affordability and access, but the use of AI will probably cover some of that. But I generally would say that I'm not worried about AI taking my job because...
as much as the law is the law, that one size doesn't fit all mantra really does apply to people. I don't really have an answer to that but it's an interesting space at the moment with every industry I think about what efficiencies can get created through the use of technology.
Nigel (49:47)
Yeah, yeah.
No, speak to a lot of people about AI. sort of general consensus is it can get you, depending on the industry, maybe eighty to ninety percent there, but you really need that trained expert to go through it and make sure to to finish it off basically and make sure that it applies to the client. now what what is what is the vision for Orion and what do you want to achieve with it?
Brynne (50:12)
Yeah, I think at all times I sort of set myself the goal of becoming a high performance team for people going through divorce. So for us it's about the right people, the maintaining the high quality of work and...
getting clients to resolutions as quickly as possible. That's really our goal. So where Orion's going is I probably wouldn't want to be any more than double the size I am now, which
Nigel (50:39)
Okay.
Brynne (50:40)
is more just a growth perspective, but really just trying to scaffold through existing networks, open doors for people, give back to the community as well. So certainly trying to look at ways to sort of work with
and meet ambitious professionals and working mothers and trying to make all of that work, but also dads too. mean, there's a lot of ambitious professionals that are also active parents that are men as well. And I think everyone's trying to work on that juggle. So where Orion's going is just trying to help people that are...
try to make the blend work. And if you're going through a separation during the blend, then let's try work together with you to try and make it as seamless as possible so that you can prioritise what's going on and what you should be prioritising, which is your career and your kids. Yeah.
Nigel (51:41)
Okay, so so making sure that your life doesn't come to a complete halt just because this separation is happening.
Brynne (51:49)
Yeah, doesn't need to. It's challenging.
Of course, but if we can come in and help you along the way and get you through it as quickly as possible and with as much support as possible so that you can move on in the way that you want to co-parent or that you are financially independent from your partner and that you can have your Plan B life after separation, then job done for us. High five for the team and we wish you all the best moving forward.
Nigel (52:22)
Okay, great. Great. Now I'm gonna simpli simplify your life into three main boxes.
Brynne (52:26)
Love it.
Nigel (52:27)
Okay, so we've got your sporting life, your legal career, and your family and your personal life. Now, what are the lessons that you've learned or the tools you've acquired from each of these that help you in your role of Brynne Allen, founder and owner of Orion Family Law? Or is there one that stands out and say this is the dominant one or
What's your feelings on that?
Brynne (52:55)
I think rowing taught me a lot about turning up and doing the work and you can achieve a lot in your day so work hard at it and you'll achieve a lot. think family law taught me a lot that people's lives aren't straightforward.
So I even can apply that to mine when I'm having, you know, days that are up or down or clients are having, you know, going through difficult times. I also think that building Orion taught me a lot about backing myself and being not comfortable, but OK with that, with uncertainty on things, but learning and having to learn new skills. But I think.
being a parent has...
completely change probably what I think success is. I think type A personality, trying to be a high achiever, goal setting, me, sort of has to take a backseat when my kids came along. And backseat, mean, it doesn't, it's not linear. You might
Nigel (54:08)
Yeah, yeah.
Brynne (54:09)
have your best of intentions and map out your week entirely, but you know, kids can throw that into disarray or it doesn't
go out the way that you want, but how you spend your time with them and watching them achieve things, it's a very different lens on the world when you have the children as part of that process as well.
Nigel (54:31)
Mm. Yeah, yeah, you you you're you're right. You get a more rounded approach instead of just, well, growing the business is just the number one priority and that's it. It is well, no, there there is a a blend. So you we've got from your sporting life, we've got the discipline of
Brynne (54:47)
Yeah.
Nigel (54:48)
showing up, doing the work, your legal career, more client centric approach, not one size fits all, how to deal with clients. And then from family life.
Reframing
what success is, as you said earlier, you see Orion being double the size and probably that is the perfect fit for what you want to achieve and what these three things bring together.
Brynne (55:09)
Yeah.
Nigel (55:11)
Okay, now we've we've been going for almost an hour now. So let's just
Brynne (55:14)
Sorry.
Nigel (55:16)
finish off with a couple of more light-hearted questions. if your life across elite rowing, family law, business ownership, and motherhood were a TV series, what would it be called and which actor would you want to play you?
Brynne (55:33)
Now full disclosure, did give me this question before we started. I... Yeah, that's fair. Thank you.
Nigel (55:37)
Yeah, I thought it was only fair.
Brynne (55:43)
I think the first thing that I came to as whoever would want to play me is Rose Byrne, because she's
Nigel (55:48)
Okay.
Brynne (55:48)
a hilarious Australian actress.
Nigel (55:51)
Mm-hmm.
Brynne (55:52)
And I think she has strikes that right balance of comedy and calmness, I think.
I used to love the series The Offspring with Asher Keddie.
Nigel (56:05)
They used to film
that here in this office actually where I work out of. Yeah, yeah, in Preston
Brynne (56:09)
really? There you go.
Nigel (56:11)
here. Yeah, they used to come into work and they'd be yeah, they'd be doctors wandering around with gurneys and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brynne (56:16)
Yeah, there you go.
I kind of, I feel like if it was a TV series, my life would probably be something like Asher Keddie's one in that series. But I think, yeah, I think if I was going to call it a movie or something, it'd probably be calling like the long game.
Nigel (56:34)
Got
Brynne (56:34)
That really, you know, you've got to...
I kind of very much feel that everything that I've done from a young age through the elite path, from the rowing aspect into my legal career to date has all sort of led me to here. And I think this isn't the end. So it's certainly, keep going and progressing to the end. But that probably is a nice mantra for clients as well. Don't focus on the short term issue at hand. mean, whilst it's important, it's not important in the long end of where we need to end up, which is a resolution.
and all things.
Nigel (57:10)
Long game.
Okay, so we've got the long game starring Rose Byrne
Brynne (57:14)
Yeah.
Nigel (57:15)
Now, is this going to be a is this gonna be a comedy or is it gonna be a drama?
Brynne (57:20)
But both? don't know. That'd be highs and lows. You gotta
Nigel (57:21)
Yeah, both.
Brynne (57:25)
try and take the comedic aspect to both, don't you? There's humour in
Nigel (57:29)
Yeah, yeah.
Brynne (57:30)
all of it.
Nigel (57:31)
And are we looking at a T V series or do you think just a one off hit, a movie?
Brynne (57:35)
well
look, if anyone wants to produce something and get my story and wants to pay some millions for it, either or is fine by me.
Nigel (57:44)
okay Brynn, look lovely to speak with you today. Thank you very much. And thank you for Nicola
Brynne (57:48)
Thank you for having me.
Nigel (57:50)
for introducing us.
Brynne (57:51)
Yes, yeah, hopefully this, I don't get too much backlash for
Nigel (57:56)
Yeah.
Brynne (57:56)
any revelations I've made in this podcast, but thank you for having me. It's been lovely.
Nigel (58:00)
No problems, look. It's been an absolute pleasure. And thank you for everyone for listening to the Priority Lane podcast. And we'll be back next week with another episode. Thank you very much, Brynn. Have a great day.
Brynne (58:11)
Thank you.
Nigel (58:12)
We can turn